insight, expert analysis let's go through some key takeaways and real-time updates line from the courtroom. >> this is riveting testimony that we are getting. >> follow the facts, follow the testimony, followed oh, cnn 9:00 p.m. here in new york de ten, the trump hush money trial ending with a false claim from the defendant that he's not being allowed to testify. >> the day began with prosecutors seeking additional contempt judgment against him. but things really heated up during the testimony. stormy daniels and karen mcdougal's former attorney, keith davidson the prosecution played the phone conversation that michael cohen secretly recorded and cnn exclusively obtained featuring donald trump taking an active role in the karen mcdougal deal. >> we're going to be talking about that and the impression that it may have had on the jury throughout the program. >> if you're just joining us here's that clip i need to open up a company for the transfer of all the bat info

regarding our friend david i'm going to do that right away. i'd actually come up to me and i've spoken to allen weisselberg about how to set the whole thing up with the funding yes and it's all the stuffing all the stuff because here you have an or with that company you have an over his going but correct. so i'm i'm all over that and i spoke to alan about it when it comes time for the financing, which will be what will have to so get hold on and on and on. i got no check back with the panel joining us. >> cnn's laura coates, host of laura coates live at 11. also cnn's kara scannell, who was in court again today. what did what stood out to you care from court today? >> i mean, i think the audio is a big thing. we're hearing donald trump's voice, the jury is hearing that for the first time and hearing a lot of michael cohen let's conversations because that was just one of the audio recordings that was played today. the other one that was played was cohen on the phone with davidson. we're counting a

conversation with donald trump in which he was saying that he was quoting trump is saying, i hate the fact that we did it referring to the stormy daniels deals. so just interesting for the jury to hear this, these are real-time recordings. of course, trump's lawyers will push back on what it means and what he was referring to. but just really the jury hearing, both cohen referencing trump and donald trump, who's sitting in the room, but hearing him on this secretly recorded phone conversation, talking about this specific deal in the cases trump's lawyers have tried to push away from it, you're laura, how do you think these recordings play? >> well, they are part of the overall jigsaw puzzle. you want to give a little bit for each witness. >> now, one witness is not gonna give you everything you ever need to prove your case, but you want to get the juror closer and closer to the clear picture. but you also want them thinking themselves as shady as it might be for an attorney to record a comes with his client why did you think you had to what took place before that and what took place after that to put in context exactly why you were doing that. that'll give some additional food for thought for the jurors to understand. is he doing it to

save his skin or is he doing it because he believes that this person is somehow trying to be secretive about even his involvement in it. and he's trying in to give some evidence down the road. that's part of the overall picture is becoming increasingly clear that michael cohen is not going to be the most sympathetic figure for these jurors, nor does he have to be. where does david pecker have to be naught is the idea of the catch and kill and salacious details. they have to return the jury to the overarching crime that they are alleging the falsified business records. a lot they this is about contextualizing it. and the audio is why they don't help necessarily in terms of showing cohen as somebody who should be completely trusted. it doesn't absolve trump of being open, being skeptical about why someone did not trust him. >> when do you think michael cohen will be brought to the stand? >> even michael cohen doesn't know. i mean, it's essentially basically they tell them to be in the area at a certain time and then but you've seen how the prosecution has been laying out the witnesses. they have someone really interesting like david pecker, come on the first

day and then they'll bring in the people who are going to do basically custodial records because as you noted in a an 8:00 hour, trump's team won't stipulate to anything. they won't say yes, our client did say that at a trump rally and 28 so they have to bring in people. just say this, the chain of evidence to bring in someone today to say yes, this audio is real, it is verified. we've been able to authenticate it. and so i think that's one thing when we talk about whether a witness is believable or not or credible or not. and michael cohen obviously is going to get a very tough cross-examination. we know that the audio tape brings trump closer to this, and it's irrefutable. it is trump's voice on there. it is trump talking about it. can we just talk a little bit about the tape because i am sure the juror to hear that let's start at the the tape they are going to hear it multiple, multiple times and i'm sure parsing every word. >> but what donald trump's say there when he talks about the money, he says, is the money going to be in cash? >> is that something that jury

is going to think? wow, what a responsible businessman know, this. i mean, i think the jury is going to think why didn't you say ganim, office. i mean trump is involved in this. i hope is like a mob tape, i'm and michael cohen certainly has adopt or i guess used to adopt that persona or seems like a lot of people in the trump organization adopted that have been saying like our friend david i mean, all i would hear this speaking in code, i mean, jeffrey, you and i were having it probably at the exact same thoughts at the exact same moment because it actually brings me back to the fani willis proceedings and georgia where trump's lawyers tried to make a whole thing about how she paid for things in cash and here's trump saying 130,000 he was suggesting that they pay are faring hundred grand in cash. >> you have a one elected district attorney.

>> yeah. but one is a businessman and arthur handles casual. the jury is sitting there and they're just going to be alive who does that who want a paper we have at least we have two lawyers on the panel. >> we have a financial person, jury. we have a finance person it may not be in the world of business. so what business is it that you know about where 100,000, $30,000 in cash he's routine unless you're doing business in some part of the world where you my brand house closings with different kinds. there are different kinds of into it is not so it's not organized crime when we're talking about getting somebody killed? yes. michael cohen has embraced this on the fixer and the way he talks and the way he handled themselves. >> but if you listen to that tape, ladies and gentlemen, jury, you know, would proves his guilty. michael cohen. what does trump say? okay, $130,000. but michael cohen, whose voice

from people who i spoke to in the courtroom, they said what came out of the tape today wasn't trump's voice. will you barely hear? it? was michael cohen's booming voice in that courtroom? and i think elie said earlier, they're dirty being up michael cohen with their own witnesses to china like lay the groundwork, get ready, ladies and gentlemen, because you're going to hear from a sleazy guy, but anderson, i've been involved with a lot of trials. i've never had a prosecutors calling their own witnesses to dirty up their main witness. that is just not normal, but to their time to take out this thing. first of all, it's not as if this is a figure who has had his voice altered throughout the course of the last several years. we don't know is identity. michael cohen has a very known figures so much though it was a part of the conversation in terms of even jury selection and his hayden, who they might have known, hafner, where there were the case. and so they are aware of who it is. but to be honest, it's not as if most crimes or witnessed by a bus full of nuns, there there witness by

people who sometimes are comparison with the i agree. >> i agree with while everyone a happy, but i appreciate that you do. but let me i'll say this we're thinking about what i think that they are trying to do i think they're trying to make this jury say and this is how things are done, this how the sausage is made, this is a shakedown, of course, a very, very wealthy man who says he's very, very wealthy, they get hit up all the time i'm about people alleging that they've got his story. boy, do i have a story to tell you? they're not so much, i think painting this on the hopes that people suddenly have an epiphany about their opinion about a well-known figure, maybe like michael cohen, as much as thinking will hold on. this is, this is kinda how things are done. i guess if you're rich someone's got a target on your back financially, that's one of the way physical to try to do so combine that with the idea of why you're hearing michael cohen's voice they want to suggest that he is a sycophant who only wanted to please. there was no intimation, there was no suggestion. he took it upon himself, but that's why the prosecution has got to make their case. it was never going to be a cake walk, but they've

got approved. this is not innuendo they're going to try to present the attaboy that comes after, not is it cashman and an unknown and a no. and then what happened later? remember we just mother, baby pecker. thank you. >> from trump. thank you for your help with the situations. he hadn't emissions the white house, he even sits in a room with a microphone. i was getting extorted. stormy daniels says, we're going to lose leverage if the if he loses if he loses the presidency we need to get my money. i want my mother i know. corrects it on redirect by the prosecutor's, it davidson, miss testified to that based on the way that the cross-examination went on reading direct, he said that he wasn't quoting stormy daniel's. he was quoting her publicist boyfriend who was just about to give an interview saying that he's the one that was something that probably had some impact on the jury. they were initially initially heard this for the first time as though it was stormy daniels saying that, and then a regional wasn't stormy daniels

who said that she would lose leverage. it was the, public. >> also, he published a blog or something of some kind he, he had written. >> well, they were trying to trump sun was trying to suggest that he wrote the blog post in 2011 on the dirty.com blog that initially surfaced this daniel's trump liaison and then they never quite got it, confirmed that he actually did but he worked for the record. >> if you have a publicist was boyfriend for something called the dirty.com? probably not a good idea extortion theory here tonight. the one thing that was clear as all this was being negotiated is that stormy daniels had other options. >> other people were interested in this story and they were trying to keep her from telling it publicly. and i believe she told you this in her interview that she just she didn't want it to be out there. she knew what people would say the attacks on her, the names what would happen, and to other people could have bought the story. she could have sold it to someone else. and made that much. >> if we could just talk about michael cohen. i know you want

to make michael cohen out to be the worst person ever any federal jury that convicted of talking the judge what is exactly exactly what buddies, arrows, bill hearable terrible, and who was it? >> who hired michael cohen year after years to work for? there? >> i have represented guys who worked assistant to the president of american express the assistant to the president of american express merges breast seems to be a pretty prestigious thing. there's the president know what direct underlings are doing in that particular case absolutely. michael cohen has, donald trump has no idea what my nose is. >> a tape is going to come out where trump says, you handle it, you just deal with this because that's what you do when you're running for president, when you're a billionaire, when you are the president, you delegate and the defense here, you're is your hypothesis is that michael cohen was excellent most of the time but suddenly, what you're

saying you're saying trump didn't know that he was corrupted. we just played the tape were with trump really involved he and also david pecker has already testified and a photo was shown in court of him walking past the rose garden, but we know the conversation was trump's saying, how's our girl karen, or how's karen debts? >> hi, that's not illegal. once you illegals what went in the book, that's the crime you're saying. >> trump is seemingly unaware of. i don't think that early at this this photo was taken according to david pecker trump is asking him with all the world's problems that he must be my shoulders and the white house place that's david pecker, nothing illegal about. i'm not saying it's the league. i'm just saying he's he's in the white house and he's concerned about karen mcdougal and ishee going to remain my point is is talking about all right, there i think anderson cooper, i think they're going to have a very hard time proving that donald trump said in the logbook in

our office, which we're not presenting to anyone, put it down this way, so it goes that way. he just says michael i spoke to weisselberg, who's also a jareh jail, right now. >> if don't trump with the principle is saying, oh, let's pay in cash or less, paying cash, want the world to note, right? so he probably, what he very well might like if he's so concerned about it being paid in cash maybe you would want to know where to run down the other things that kara kara just mentioned that that came into evidence today was donald trump's sort of indicating oh, he didn't really want to pay this money. he was sort of upset about it. i read that to be one of those pieces of evidence that could go either way, either to this idea that he just it doesn't like to hand out his money to anyone in general or that he was upset about paying money when he felt under pressure to do so. i mean, to me that seems to also be something that could that could actually work in his favor was fascinating to it, was listening to everyone we are unpacking and parsing each word and monday morning,

quarterbacking these jurors hear it in real time when you clarified a point of cross you have to wonder are the jurors actually picking up on those nuances? great. what are they remembering in these moments? are they thinking to themselves? does the rose garden picture resonate in the same way? did stormy daniel's boyfriend or where it was saying it and remember, they're not just using what they know here and much as we tell jurors to do so, we heard that video or audio tape years ago, michael cohen and people who may remember having heard that audio tape and they remember some of the details of this case. and so i have to wonder what good is gonna happen? in the deliberation rooms. are they as focused and looking at the nuance or is it to the advanced the defense to keep them from stipulates, they have every mundane detail you remember the cspan executive, you remember the time to get fizz document then in that document and because the more they have to add that kitchen sink that's a form of delay. >> this could also apply the prosecution's tactic of sort of painting a very broad picture of what kind of world

was donald trump and what kind of person was donald trump? because if you're a juror, you're probably sitting there thinking, who does that, right? like, every time something like that comes up there, just thinking, wait second who does that that is probably at the end of the day. what is going to drive their big picture understanding of what kind of person is donald trump, what kind of business was he engaged in? what would he really have parted ways with this kind of money without knowing what it was for. >> arthur. arthur has over $30,000 right now we're going to take a break. >> we'll see you was left after the cash has been handed out. much more head including some key moments from the trial transcript that we've just gotten, including the defense's effort to take attention away from stormy daniels and down trump's her desire to buyer who by her silence and put the scrutiny and set on michael cohen and keith davidson who made the deal happy with in here.

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keith davidson was an extortion as for selling the silence of his clients, stormy daniels and karen mcdougal, and they tried to paint trump fixer, michael cohen, as driven by his own ambition as we've been talking about, not his boss's orders more now and what the trial transcript reveals about both john berman's back with that. >> so michael cohen had many alleged complaints in his conversations with keith davidson, including about getting compensated? >> yes. so keith davidson recounts on the stand a conversation that he says he had with michael cohen. this was during the transition, david it's ends in a department store in december, i guess, of 2020. and he says, quote he said something to the effect of jesus christ. can you effing believe i'm not going to washington after everything i've done for that fn guy, i can't believe i'm not going to washington. i've saved that guys asieh so many times. you don't even know probably let's heater says and did in the david's as is. and then and then question is, i'm sorry, i didn't mean to interrupt you. davidson says and then he made reference to

he said, you know, i never even got paid that f-in guy is not even paying me back the $130,000 and then they made clear the hundred $30,000 and they're talking about what did you mean by that last? as part i never got paid, repaid the uh, hundred and $30,000 from the deal with stormy daniel's. so again, where you have there is complaining about the money, but also complaining about not going to washington, nothing appointed to a job somewhere in the trump administration. >> i remember that though, because michael cohen was devastated and what what keith davidson testified to his correct. that he thought he would be attorney general or chief of staff, or some prominent role in the michael cohen thought he would be attorney yeah. okay. >> let's not forget that period. >> but entirely possible after trump won the election, i mean, the figures that we're going in and out of trump tower that people that he wanted to see where michael cohen is someone who wanted to always elevate himself in trump's thighs. >> he had lunch with mark cuban and he had them said paparazzi there. so trump would see him having lunch with mark cuban and so he was always someone

who thought that trump would be loyal back to him. i think that's really also the tail of what we're seeing here, which is we only know this because michael cohen said a lot of this publicly, even though people discredit him, i understand that. but michael cohen came forward and flipped on trump, even though trump was once confident, and it's something it's a known quantity now, the breakdown in the relationship, but for people who knew them, i mean, michael cohen is someone who is completely loyal to donald trump and did not get that loyalty back and retard, of course, he must have known that that was a possibility because he taped that call yeah. i mean, he taped the call for a reason a probably to substantiate that the agreement had been made, but also to ensure that it was on the record that he had put this money down for donald trump so the idea that michael cohen from the beginning questioned whether prompt would be good for the his his side of the deal, the money and i'd all event i think was always there. he always suspected that trump would tell us wife about this.

i mean, he's calling keith davidson. i'm not sure. many other people knew that michael cohen actually had done this at that time. rudy giuliani, obviously later new because he said it on fox news. but michael cohen's wife didn't even know that this had occurred, and that works two ways. >> remember, we heard the testimony from the banker to suggest that he had a certain amount of money in the bank and then he wanted to match that because his wife buckle cohen's wife, looked at all the finances and he was trying to be very secretive about all these different aspects of it. >> now, if you're the defense, how are you going to use that you're going to say? this man has lied to every branch of government and his wife, but you want it to believe him right now, but if you are the prosecution, think about your working backwards, you're thinking about your closing argument, how to sum out of all things have happened here. and one thing you want to sum up is the use of the word that berman just read repaid or not? i thought if i did this, he might do this. he hasn't even repaid me and you combine the word repaid with the audio tape has been recorded, does suggest that there has been some meeting of the minds between

donald trump and michael cohen about an event that would take place. and then he did not make good on his promise. i remember. when is he? thank this. can you believe i'm not going to go to the white house with him. he's won an election that the damage has been, at least not done, but it has been contained and you add it all? >> no. that the crime is called are not the crime. in other words, they could prove all day long following that he paid $130,000 in cash and checked and credit card. that's not the crime. and anderson okay. we have some fun with the cash part, but thinking about it, if you're paying for a confidentiality agreement, that's the legal term and it's hush money is it's media, but the legal terms of confidentiality agreement typically you don't want to be what a big track record of what here's a check for $130,000 to stormy daniels floating around the universe, like really wanted $30,000 that's why attorney should not have had

him talking in front of the courthouse at one point in time. >> remember this last week donald trump comes out and tries to try to create and fighting the conversation suggests all i've done right all the time is i wrote on a memo line for legal services. i paid an attorney for legal services by weight that could possibly come back to haunt him why? because what i just said if the agreement was made. and now the mission accomplished, is that i have won the election and the purpose of having to repay you is now about what i've written in the business records. i no longer have the same level of exposure, so they have to craft that all together. you're right in isolation in a vacuum. you cannot just sort of pick and choose and say aha, this one sentence but the cumulative aspect for this prosecution point-by-point is what they're going towards for that falsified business records. and again, that trying to hide an underlying crime. >> and remember, this is what the prosecution is going to hope to do, is say, this is mostly a documents case is that the checks exist. the checks to stormy daniels exist, and the checks to come into to pay

michael cohen back exist. the business records exist where the payments are characterized as as legal fees the only issue in the case, ultimately, as you keep pointing out, is donald, did donald trump know that these false indications are on the business records and the second part and the being used to commit another crime. >> they kitchen, he can't just be that it's on the books. that's that's statue of limitations. now, that's a misdemeanor. that's gone. it's gotta be yes, donald trump news on the books and then knew it was in furtherance of another crime. its pieces that but that's the easy part because that other crime is campaign. >> everybody ago, which one state of federal? >> we have. it could be both. >> it doesn't matter. it doesn't matter does it matter that the record, the business records, i mean, isn't the defense arguing these are personal records that these are not business records submitted

to the irs. >> these are internal trump commit. it's still a crime it's still doesn't have to be he doesn't have to be submitted to be like an iron. >> anderson's point. he's not charged with filing a false ensured that is another crime. he is not charged with that. it's falsifying business records, which as you correctly pointing out, it's an internal document? not that he gave it to the federal election committee or the irs or anyone else here? >> hundreds of crimes that he's not charged with but he actually is charged with the one that is a crime. >> but anderson making a valid point. in other words, it's not that he craves someone filled this out and submit it and said this is the truth. it was in a desk in someone's desk in an office, but the state of new york has decided that it is a crime. it's to have a false, just to be clear, it's a misdemeanor that at this point is barred by the statute of limitations, and it only comes to life if they could prove that it was in furtherance of another crime. >> and ellie always say about the tape about michael cohen,

one of the first questions i'm one of the first areas on cross-examination is how many other times have you recorded donald trump? because i'll bet the hundred and 30,000 i got in my pocket. that that's not the only time he recorded a really good question about how many other times he's he's done this to a degree because to me, if you're the prosecution, what you want, what you want to indicate is that michael cohen knew that what he was doing, first of all, was shady. he wanted it on tape that he was doing it for trump with trump's knowledge. and the election looms large over that. and if they can substitute dan shi aid that the reason he was worried about getting this on tape, maybe this will come out when microcode takes the stand, is because the stakes here, what i recorded all my conversation and so canada, he says i recorded all my i'm just it's a valid question. i mean attorney client pointed but maybe but i think valid

question that i think michael cohen will have to heal, have to explain why in that particular moment it was important to tape it and it seems to me the presidential election is not irrelevant in that conversation. >> i say, one other thing is that, is it you're talking about this being a documents case. it may be it may be very dry, but there are a lot of home when the prosecution is getting stuff in there. that's not dry at all. and this in the control and just see, you know, this is what graphic number three is for the 9:00 hour here it has to do with the relationship that stormy daniels had with donald trump. allegedly right. and they get this into evidence here today. steinglass, the prosecutor asks, so let me direct you to two parts. in particular, this is of a statement that stormy daniel's and keith davidson crafted the first two sentences when it states that shame is daniels was contacted by certain news outlets alleging she had a sexual and romantic affair with donald trump many, many years ago. and then it states that that's absolutely false. how was that technically correct? the prosecutor s.

davidson responds, well, i think you have to hone in on the definition of romantic sexual, and affair. the prosecutor says, okay. can you explain that? davidson says, well, i don't think that anyone had ever alleged that any interaction between sheet and mr. trump was romantic and then steinglass says, okay, how about sexual and the davidson responds, well, that would be a sexual or romantic. so yes, this may be a documents case, but there has to be a reason the prosecution is doing everything they can to show there is some pretty simi behavior. there was also something in the transcripts understand about keith davidson and his surprise on election night, that donald trump had one, what did he say that night and necessity? there's a text message exchange between keith davidson and dylan howard, who of course work for david pecker. >> and just to really quickly through this, this is the first exchange and attacks davidson says, yes, what did you say? davidson says, what have we done steinglass, the prosecutor

says, what did you mean by that, mr. davidson? davidson says, well, that was sort of a gallows humor for and it was on election night as a result for coming in and there was a sort of surprise amongst the broadcaster and others at donald trump was leading in the polls and there was a growing sense that folks were about to be ready to call the election. the prosecutor says, and you referred to it as gallows humor. can you explain that a little more? what did you mean? why did you say what have we done davidson, he says, i think there was an understanding this is a text between dylan howard and i, and there was an understanding that our efforts may have in some way, i should strike that. that our activities may have in some way assisted the presidential campaign of donald trump an important, well, i mean part of the charges in this case is that all of these transactions, all of this money was ultimately to benefit donald trump's campaign. >> and what they are saying is my god, it worked. and that's part of the case. some berman thanks very much for the transcripts coming up. the

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vector rush to walmart and on or potential with forced dagger. >> i'm under raja capitol hill. this is cnn what the end of every core day, the form present makes no secret of his feelings about the judge, the prosecution, and the system of criminal justice. >> he finds himself at odds with and on recent day off, he expressed a similarly dark view of the electoral process. if things don't go his way hi, his lights, the former president was campaigning wednesday, his off day in wisconsin, just outside of milwaukee. he also gave an interview to the local newspaper, the journal sentinel, and for the third presidential campaign in a row, he began laying groundwork for not accepting the results of this november's election he said this of the upcoming wisconsin vote, quote, if everything's honest, i'll gladly accept the results. if it's not, you have the fight, you have to fight the right for

the right of the country, which raises the question, of course, what happens if this trial doesn't turn out in his favor? joining our panel, former communications director and the trump white house. so less far, griffin i don't think it surprises you that he would say this a third time about this upcoming election, but remarkable to see him just boldly saying that well, and what's also remarkable is this trial, which is incredibly important is happening. but in some ways it kinda superseded this incredible full-time interview that donald trump gave and his own words, which is laying out verbatim what aids like myself have warned for the last four years that a second term would be mass deportations, detention camps for undocumented migrants in the country, weaponizing the department of justice going after political adversaries and just really paying this picture of a fundamentally un-american i can second term, he's also openly talking about contesting election results before even having them. i worry that in this moment that we're in these very scary things aren't getting quite the attention that they can. we're living in such a fast-paced media environment. i don't necessarily see the biden

campaign doing enough to really raise the stakes here and say this is how dangerous this moment is it's yes, he will absolutely contest the results of the election. did it once before. >> so he's raised the bar so high for based on everything he's always said that at a certain point, it just becomes noise. i go, yeah, of course he would say this and people don't even pay attention. >> people do tune it out. yes, i will never forget when trump was asked it in the briefing room that de and he equivocated and wouldn't say whether or not he would accept the results of the election. >> it was the middle of covid that's what everyone is primary rarely asking questions about. and that was the first time he had said it in such a public forum. i know you'd set it in 2016 and he had referenced it before. but this is donald trump. this is what he does. he did this in the town hall a year ago. he said, i'll accept the results of the next election if it's an honest election, the person who decides that in terms might is donald trump just point out that what he said in that interview is almost word for word, what he said on the ellipse on january 6th, you have to fight and about an

election result. >> you don't like and they fought at the capitol on january 6. >> he's saying the same thing. yeah. and expecting presumably the same result. >> i didn't want it's also the court. what are you saying in court, right. if he will his his acceptance is always contingent on a result being favorable. it's only going to be a fair system where a fair trial or a fair jury, if it results in what he believes to be, it should be an acquittal. >> let's play what he said after courts well, i'm not allowed to test if i am under a gag i can testify if now we're going to be appealing the games i'm not allowed to testify there's this judge who's telling think conflicted. >> as be under a unconstitutional gag order. nobody's ever had that paid for obviously, that is false at the time. >> she's reaction is someone that was sort of like a not like a news. and then uh yes.

>> my heart breaks for him, a photonic because i've been in those positions where you have a client larger than life, but not but not in this league, former president all right. i just said not in that league. >> yeah. but okay. but mr. weinstein had a lot to say, mr. herschel, that is the last thing rudy giuliani has allowed to say alan dershowitz says a lot today. anthony weiner, as let's say, roger else that a lot to say. so yeah, i've had some clients by the way, i had a lot of all those suffering in the world. i think your heart can break for some other say it was we taught in that position to have made his choices yes. i agree with you. but when you have a guy like that saying something that's ridiculous on two levels, there's never been a gag order like that before. that's ridiculous. that's not true and i can testify because the gag order that's elementary knowledge. i mean, my high-school sudden knows that you are allowed to testify. that's not true. so you sit there like schmoll kind of as you're okay, mr. president. but i mean, those words to come out of his mouth are ridiculous. >> i think the other thing just to merge the two story lines

here, trump fundamentally is always trying to sort of break down the institution's any system any procedure, any process that is unfavorable to him is fundamentally unfair in his view. >> that goes for elections, that goes for this court in manhattan, that goes for the court in georgia. it goes for the court in florida where he's being tried in the documents case so knowing that when it comes to the elections, which is really the whole ball game what does the country do when he's basically saying what he's what his game plan is going forward. when you asked republicans, as i'm sure, all of us will over the next six months. what are you going to do different this time around compared to the last time around when he laid the predicate for january 6, if the answer is we're gonna do the same thing we did last last time, which is basically say that this is donald trump's rhetoric and it doesn't matter that i think tells us everything we need to know about what's going to happen, going forward it has not seemed to me like establishment

republicans or whoever else in the republican party who are the ones who ultimately will have to make their choices here. their behavior is not really changed and so it suggests that donald trump is just going to play the same playbook and it might have the same result, except that this time around, people are more ready for it. >> well, i mean, caitlin spoke to senator jd vance last night, and also i want to play this for you because she she asked him if terms treatment of mike pence on january 6 gave him any pauses. this is what he said caitlin, i'm extremely skeptical that mike pence's life was ever in danger. >> i think politics and politics people like to really exaggerate things from time to time a lot of senator, a lot of folks the democratic party, kaitlan, act as if january the 6th was the scariest moment of their lives. i think look, january 6 was a bad day. it was a riot, but the idea that donald trump endangered anyone's lives when he told them to protest peacefully. it's just absurd i mean

obviously writers were chanting hang mike pence. >> it's just stunning. i mean, yes, riders channing hang mike pence gallows being erected on the south lawn i know mike pence's security detail. i've traveled the world with them. they do not mess around. i've spoken to them after january 6, they feared for his life and mike pence chose not to stay even though he was at risk. they reload kate at him. >> it was just a rewriting of history, j.d. vance knows that's not true. >> and by the way, is somebody who's been on the receiving end of death threats from maga world, it should not be stunning to anyone that people would threaten somebody for going against salma also, there's videos of other republican senators who were there that day running from the rioters is they were breaking in and i thought what's so interesting, and this is important for people who don't know is j.d. vance is on donald trump's vp shortlist. >> he is someone who could be in the role that mike pence was on that day? he's made clear he would not do what mike pence did and stand in the way of sending the fake slates of electors to congress. he believes congress should fight that out, essentially define the constitution. and i just

think it speaks to the moment of what he's in and the question was, does it give you any pause? how trump is treated? mike pence, a lifelong conservative, and didn't even call mike pence that de when he was up there and mike pence's said that donald trump put his life in danger, also his family who was with him. so he's made that clear, but it does speak to abby's point about who is going to be around donald trump if he is if he is going to be potentially put back in the white house it could be people who say they won't stay away at this point effective by the way, as you're talking about it, this is supreme court right now that is deliberating as to whether he would have immunity absolute immunity. >> so we've talked about who would surround a future president or somebody who might return to the oval office if it president has absolute immunity, it doesn't matter who's to his left, more whose to his right or any one because no one above them. that's the whole point. >> the law would even be below him and that's part of what the consideration is going forward. >> remember, there are asking for conditional, the way he talks about conditional, asking for absolute immunity and all

that is being contemplated did nine justices have to consider it? >> stay with us coming up, who will testify next still a lot of big names to hear from, including someone once considered to be one of the former president's most trusted aides in the white house. let's add ever miss before you're preventing my thing with q left. >> you'll never truly forget migraine, but zero migraine days are possible don't take if allergic to lift up those kind i'm the side effects are nausea, constipation, sleepiness, heel up, theft, that forget you have migraines shop etsy until may 12 and get up to 30% off special mother's day gifts that go beyond the usual suspects but if she wants candles, our selection is less order until may 12th for up to 30% off personalized jewelry fresh start original decor, and other things. >> moms actually loved when you need a gift that says unique

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people potentially silly, but i do think after that, there is an open question of who fits next in this narrative hope hicks has been widely speculated about toys. we don't know that it is going to be her, but in that audio tape that they played in the courtroom today, it does. i believe you can hear her voice in the background. she was obviously around for those key conversations with michael cohen, so she could be a natural fit potential was how or hope hicks and kellyanne conway seen in the trump world today so two very different figures on hope i started with their boat since i didn't the white house, she had one focus. >> she's not ideological. she's not particularly partisan. her role in the white house was to protect donald trump at all costs. she sees herself as a trump loyalist. first and foremost, i'm a little surprised that there's been some kind of media scuttle, but that perhaps she's really going to turn on him and this is going to be a big moment where she reveals what he did wrong. i think she's going to tell the truth as instructed by her attorneys, but i think she will stay very well within the lines of anything she what won't want to say anything that's incriminating to the former president and kellyanne conway.

i mean, she's still clings to the inner circle. she's from a certain perspective advising the campaign right now. i don't know that either are a slam dunk for the prosecution in any sense. >> yeah. i mean, in many ways, think about why you'd want remember, they cannot play the access hollywood tape they are not allowed to its two prejudicial according to the judge, they can reference the fallout from the access hollywood tape for framing purposes of the prosecution, you want to make the connection that the reason why he was motivated to try to falsify a business record or even pay this person differently than he had to have karen mcdougal was because they were concerned about the impact to the campaign from the fallout of the access hollywood tape. so if you've got emails, if you've got discussions, if you've got communications with hope as the connecting dot between the campaign and the fallout of access hollywood to where we are now. >> that's when they're most useful. >> and she need not frankly, even be somebody to turn on trump or to me, or to turn against sam she asked to be somebody to say, well, look, it was contemplated the fallout was major.

>> we thought there was a chance that if there was one more straw that fell on perhaps the evangelical vote or back, or the women voters back, or just the electoral voters in general that could have been the end of the campaign. that's the concern you have to convey. >> i think one of the most interesting questions about the prosecution is this point is do they call karen mcdougal and even do they call stormy daniels? >> that's because that's a great point. >> do you think they need to as a technical legal matter? i don't think so. i mean, the checks have been introduced. the purpose behind the checks have been introduced and so they don't have to prove that the sex took place. that's not part of the case. >> and they may think that the prosecutors may think this is too much of a spectacle, too much of a sideshow. >> and so i don't know. i mean, i think stormy daniels is likely because it is her transaction that is really in the heart of this case. but

karen mcdougal, it's it's essentially background information. the prosecution has has already put forward all about the transaction. i don't know if they need her. so before i get to that point, when you talk about tomorrow, it's all about strategy, right? and when your defense attorney you're exhausted, you you a literally exhausted. and if you put on the prosecution puts on a key witness tomorrow on friday the fence has saturday, and sunday to see. okay. this is the direct they're going to have daily copy and think could really prepare very well for the cross-examination on monday. so when i was a prosecutor, i tried to put on like nonsensical when no big deal witnesses, but on a friday on a friday, so that i don't give the advantage it is attorney to have that weekend prep what jeffrey is saying though, is i've been thinking about that. do they really need stormy daniels? but if you give the defense the opportunity to go up there and say, i am as a

defense attorney, i am telling you my client has always said he didn't have sex with stormy daniels and this was a shakedown. these were absolutely false allegations and this is a just paid this money just to even if it was for the presidential election, it changes. now he really is a victim of extortion. so i think they're going to have to bring her in and she's going to say, yes, we had sex where when as a defense attorney, you would and you are representing trump, you would not want stormy daniels and karen mcdougal to testify, correct? >> but you know what, you don't have to remember one of the objections that came during the opening, which we all know, opening statement ejections are pretty rare. want to kinda have everyone have their flow one flat comment that instantly got sustained by the judge was was alluding that stormy was an extortionist that's something that the judge is going to have on a very tight leash. number one. >> number two, it really doesn't matter if they actually were engaged in a sexual affair, anything any more than it matters whether at

that time, and his gosh, with billy bush, he really did ghraieb and the p. all that matters is the fallout idea of whether it would impact how he was perceived enough to motivate him to make a payment and falsified may ask you just in terms of the impressions to the jury, if they hear that donald trump has denied even knowing curtain going to go over, denied. >> and you already have testimony from david pecker saying he would ask about karen mcdougal repeatedly calling her our girl and karen saying she's a nice girl does it help to actually have them? on the stand to tell their side of the story and the jury than if they believe those two, then they are less likely to believe donald trump. >> well, yeah, he's lying about that. i mean, yes. >> but it also as a strategic reason, even though i know conceptually, i don't need to have this to check off the boxes to maybe movement make my elements i've got a jury whose leaning into the most i want them in the palm of my hand to be leaning in to know on these moments what you're hearing is

so important. number one, number two, it's going to look bad for the prosecution. you mean there's all this talk about medical comments or manuals. i don't call them a juror is going to think themselves will hold a wire. why are we not hearing from them? and you have to play it's that same level of risk for the prosecution if defense attorney, my summation, we're all used to be just underscore just the differences between karen mcdougal and stormy daniels. >> i think come into play here. karen mcdougal's relationship with trump is much more of a relationship stormy daniel's, there's debate about whether or reduce that she was in love with me. yeah. exactly. so i think that that that also is going to come into play too, in terms of trump's credibility and denying these affairs. >> thank everybothe news continues, so deserve special primetime scene and trial coverage right after a short break welcome to the roots of our legacy. >> we're excellence comfort

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